Listening to Barack Obama’s recent speech in Manchester New Hampshire (CSPN-2) :
Incredibly populist speech. He can beat even Edwards with his blatant populism.
If I will have time I will go point by point: education, healthcare , global warming; all accessories of populism are in place. Nothing really new in this populist talk.
History knows only two forms of implementation of populism: communism and fascism. Those who like populism have to choose on those above because there are no other historical options available.
Let me focus only on his favorite aspect : anti war ( or to be precise pro-defeat) position. His anti-war vote is essentially only thing that separates him from Clinton who is essentially same populist position in terms of universal healthcare and feeding money to educational system.
So let us see what Obama is saying about the war:
1.
” undo the war” slogan
He reminds us again and again that he was one who was against the war.
You were against war? OK! Let us for the sake of argument accept that you were right then. It does not mean that you are right now. Things changed between then and now. You cannot stay in the past .You have to adjust your political mind to new reality. You do not like this reality? So do I. But if you do not like a reality it does not mean that you can ignore a reality: there is no “UNDO” button on “ political computer”. You were against the war it does not mean that you can “undo“ that war. And this is what Obama essentially is saying: “I was against the war then , war was wrong then , and if you will elect me I will end the war ( read “ I will capitulate”)”.
He presumes, for some reason, that after he will surrender everything will be like it was before the war. He presumes that the war will be undone by electing him as a president. Very misleading and deceitful message.
2.
price of withdrawal: misleading out of the war versus misleading in the war
If Obama indeed is honest as he claims (the main message of Obama’s is that he is honest outsider unlike other candidates who are dishonest insiders ) he has to talk right now with his constituency about price of withdrawal which will be huge. But he is not talking about price of capitulation, he is talking only about how correct he was back then when he was against the war. ( his glorious moment as he thinks)
He either does not understand what he is talking about or he is disingenuous in order to just to be elected. Why he his not talking with constituency about the price of withdrawal ( capitulation)? He is saying that if he is a president he will talk honestly about problems. So talk to us about the price of capitulation! Repercussions of capitulation will be catastrophic or at least they serious enough to talk about if you are really honest, of course . Capitulation means broken commitments, slaughtered allies, forever brokent trust in USA as word worthy partner.
So my question to Obama is : OK we got your message , you were right then does it mean that you have an alibi for being wrong now?
3.
personal vanity of Bush versus personal vanity of Obama;
May be starting the war was caused by personal vanity of Bush. May be so . But it looks like that loosing the war is a goal dedicated to personal vanity of Obama. Just because he voted against war, war has to be lost . Otherwise … he was wrong! So hurry up Obama , obstruct American efforts to win the war! If the USA will win this war it iwill prove that you were wrong back then voting against the war! You cannot afford it personally , so you have to “ stop Bush” in his efforts to win the war.
We are paying price for mistakes of Bush . I agree with that .Many things were done wrong. But why anybody would think that “ ending the war “ ( read capitulation) just because Obama voted back then against the war, will solve any of our problems? Would capitulation be a monument to Obama’s vanity?
2008 voter 
Just because you win a war doesn’t make the war right or just. The war in Iraq is wrong, and the result of completely fabricated evidence. Pre-emptive war is a mechanism of tyranny and it is about time the citizens of the U.S. demand accountability.
“Just because you win a war doesn’t make the war right or just.”
Why are you saying that? This is a truisms an obvious for everybody self-explanatory statement. Winning or loosing indeed does not make you right. But loosing is definitely making you wrong .
“The war in Iraq is wrong, and the result of completely fabricated evidence.”
Let us for the sake of argument presume that you right and it is a wrong war . The whole point of my posting is that no matter it right or wrong but the war is already the part of reality which cannot be ignored.
This is a whole problem with liberal response on reality. You are looking for somebody to blame for problem. I am looking for a solution.
Let us presume tat it is a wrong war . Does it mean that you can afford to pretend that it never happened ? It is irrelevant for right now war is wrong or correct. What is relevant is the way of ending the war. No matter how warts is started it has to ended properly. Mistakes in the pretext of war cannot be alibi for mistake of ending the war. To capitulate is a wrong way to end the war if even the war itself was wrong ( what is a tropic for another conversation).
“Pre-emptive war is a mechanism of tyranny and it is about time the citizens of the U.S. demand accountability.”
Really ? I will prove you wrong! the war against Nazi Germany was preemptive. Germany never attacked USA . Japan did. But we ended up invading Normandy . neither Germany nor fascist French state Vichy never attacked us. Was WW2 war of tyranny ?
Let’s take a look at the big picture. Suppose the war is wrong. It was wrong for us to go after and eliminate as many terrorist thugs as possible on their own soil.
Let’s just say for the sake of argument, that it was a bad decision.
Does that automatically mean, pulling our troops from Iraq is a good decision?
Is it ok to leave the Iraqi people in disarray? Should we the American people walk away? Stating, “It’s not our problem.”
Right now we are gaining ground in Iraq. The Iraqi military is gaining in strength and leading many of the missions.
What sense does it make to pull out before they have their feet under them?
Anyone who has studied any of our past wars would know that they are not easy. People die, many people… A lot of money is spent. Sacrifices are made.
Should we have abstained from a preemptive strike on Germany during WWII? It was Japan that attacked us, not Germany. Should we have allowed the persecution of the Russians, the French, the Jews, etc.? After all, it was not our fight.
Our nation suffered a severe blow in Pearl Harbor and our nation rose up and rallied behind the President in his decision.
We were a very poor country. Our military was training with sticks for guns. They were using cars marked “tank” on the side.
America rose up and sacrificed for a better world.
Today’s Americans are soft and selfish. They cried out when we were attacked on Sept. 11th 2001. They shook their fists in the air and demanded action.
Now, they shrug their shoulders and say, “It’s not our problem.”
Those who so selfishly think of none but themselves, leave me sad for our future.
My son and those who enlisted in the military, were not tricked into service with the guise of a free scholarship.
No, they stood up to defend our freedoms and are happy to be fighting the terrorists on their own soil.
Cry and whine that it was not Iraq that attacked us. The whining is old.
Perhaps one should suggest a solution rather than stand on a platform, like Obama, and claim he was once right.
(Excellent write-up 2008vote!)
Right or wrong the war exists – of course. However, getting out is not the only question, how we got in is an important lesson. I may be a liberal in your eyes – but you seem to think the ends justify the means – a common Bush administration position.
WWII was a war before the U.S. entered in – there is a difference in joining the war and causing the war. Nazi Germany was a soverign State – like Iraq – except for a few differences – like having weapons, and an army.
Answer me this. Was tyranny the start of WW2? – pre-US involvement? Would Hitler have been right all along if we all spoke German today? Did WW2 not pave a road to tyranny for Palastine?
to William:
“Right or wrong the war exists – of course. However, getting out is not the only question, how we got in is an important lesson.”
I do agree , let us learn lessons. But not during the time when our troops on the ground Let us learn the lesson after war will victoriously finished.
“I may be a liberal in your eyes”
Are you not? Sorry , just let me know who you are. I meant nothing offensive
“ but you seem to think the ends justify the means – a common Bush administration position. “
I do not think this way . And neither does Bush. If USA would think this way it would carpet bombing throughout while Iraq and Baghdad would be either Hiroshima or Dresden. USA has a lot means which it does not use. there are no reasons to presume that for USA the ends justify the means .
By the way,I do not see any outrage against mass , deliberate , daily killings of Iraqi civilians by terrorists. None on the “ progressive “ side cares . None. Total indifferences. For terrorists is “ends justify the means “. Would you care? They are killing hundreds daily just to impress you guys to make you vocal against the war and they are getting what they want. You are against the war because those terrorists are killing civilians. Why you are not against those terrorists?
Because it gives you no political dividends .It is cute and safe to be anti Bush.It is dangerous and not popular among socialists crowd to be anti Muslim terrorists .
End justify the means? The USA investing money in bombs that killed as less civilians as it is possible and terrorists are investing all they have in means to kill as many civilians as it is possible, and you are accusing USA in being “justify the means”?
Our heroic troops are dying because Bush is fighting politically correct war ( too politically correct in my taste) . To do not see that is to be blind.
“WWII was a war before the U.S. entered in – there is a difference”
What difference does it make? Spell it out for me please. Germany did not attack USA. USA did attack Germany preemptively.
“Nazi Germany was a soverign State – like Iraq – except for a few differences – like having weapons, and an army.”
Meaning what ? you mean Iraq did not have army and weapons? Baloney! If even so , what difference does it mean? They where openly anti-American , openly supportive to terrorism, and legally in the state of the war with the USA. There were reason to take them out. especially after 9/11 .
“Was tyranny the start of WW2? – pre-US involvement? Would Hitler have been right all along if we all spoke German today?”
Good point: but in realitydifferent wars starts for different reasons. And for sure if same reasoning would applied to USA during WW2 as you applying it today for USA in Iraq we would all speak German. This is for sure.
Let me ask you that: you are against preemptive war? Let us say we would invade Germany in 1938 instead pacifying Nazi and feeding them Austria and Czechoslovakia. Based on lessons learned from history would it be right thing to do ? Yes! So why are you not learning this lesson? Would it be an aggression? Yes it would . Would it be saving lives of millions of people? Yes it would. So preemptive aggression not always a bad thing. Pacifists with their selfish moral purity beyond the value of real lives killed more people by doing nothing than all imperialists altogether during the second half of 20 century.
“Did WW2 not pave a road to tyranny for Palastine?”
Here we go! Blame Jews ! it is such a safe bet. Hitler used it , it worked for him , why did not use again? What tyranny are you talking about ? Who do no recognize whom? Who did attack whom in 1948? Who is daily bombing with rockets civilians? So, you are for Palestinians terrorizing daily Israeli civilians and claiming that Israel has to be destroyed and Jews has to be killed? What it has to do with “ undoing “ of Iraq war anyway?
Read comment above form cavmom. I do not about your background and your sources of information but she unlike most of us knows what she is talking about read her blog.
As a summary: ( one picture is a substitute of many words) , take a look on this image. I think it makes a point.
Take a look
to cavmom:
Thank you for your support. you word means a lot to me:)
There is no proof that Iraq had anything to do with 9-11. 9-11 is the Bush administrations salvation – it stands as an excuse / justification for everything. When in question – call 911!
For being a pacifist with a selfish moral purity. I maintain my morals and my right to not start a fight. Iraq did not start a fight with the US. Iraq was basically contained – with no WMDs, no mobile chemical labs, nothing to threaten with. It comes down to this – the quickest way to Iraq was through 9-11 because there was no plausible justification for going prior to 9-11. – the plausible justifications….all false.
I don’t blame ‘the’ Jews. I said nothing of Jews or Israel – but it seems if you touch anywhere around the subject people who wish to foment Anti-Semitism start crying it. Now I evidently want to destroy Israel and kill Jews….or is that just what people should think of me – the pacifist with that selfish moral purity? – I’m such a complex guy and didn’t even know it!
I think we all agree there is no ‘undoing’ the Iraq war. That is fact, something we’re in short supply of from this administration. Bush bashing being so easy….the administration has no credibility – lies abound – cry wolf, red alert , mushroom clouds – call 9-11! I can’t have things ‘undone’ – the best I can hope for is that things are put right. – There is a long list of lies and inconsitencies that put us in a pre-emtive war. – As George Bush said “fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can’t get fooled again.” – eloquent as always. Point being it’s my own naive fault if I blindly believe a known liar. To what victory can we set Iraq right without knowing everything “we” have done wrong? …..Suppose no one ever knew there were Jews in those gas chambers?
There is something to be said for the saying “Kill them all, let GOD sort them out” – easier to solve your differences at the point of a gun.
Eye for an eye, etc… I can’t live my life that way. Save them all……and let GOD sort them out. As an agnostic I don’t care who’s GOD it is, nor will I preach why not.
OK Bush is bad . What then?
Can you do anything but bushing Bush ? May be for him 911 is a salvation but it looks like you for you guys Bush himself is the salvation. Climate is bad? Blame Bush! War is not going victorious enough? Blame Bush! 911 is happened? blame Bush! and so on
This is emotional hysteria not thinking. What are your suggestions? Mass suicide in the form of capitulation in Iraq? Or you would accept Bladen call for converting in Islam?
“Did WW2 not pave a road to tyranny for Palastine?”
What did that mean in the context of starting/ending Iraq war conversation? If this is not an anti-Semitism then what is that ? Why did you bring it up? Spell it out and we will see is that “blame the Jews strategy” or not. So far it is just an insinuation. Or you meant tyranny in Gaza?
“Save them all……and let GOD sort them out.”
Amen! the question is how? By surrendering in Iraq? Are you preaching ?Wishful thinking and slogans such “ let everything would be good” or ” let everybody would be happy” mean nothing for anybody! How are you going to fulfill your dreams?
I do not agree with your reasoning of causes for the war, but this was not a point of my posting. Why you think that if WMD were not found they were not there? I think that while we were wasting the time in UN they did hide in Syria. But let us argue that some other time .
you want to understand why we started the war ? we want to learn lessons form history ? Then answer my question:
Let us say we would invade Germany in 1938 instead pacifying Nazi and feeding them Austria and Czechoslovakia.
Based on lessons learned from history would it be right thing to do ? Yes! So why are you not learning this lesson? Would it be an aggression? Yes it would . Would it be saving lives of millions of people?
Hello!
How are you?